fuzzygoth: (Default)
[personal profile] fuzzygoth
Well as I was starting work on my future house in Sheffield I got a call
Email from Norton Motorcycles. Basically what it said was:

We have a vacancy for a Web/IT Developer, to basically run the IT Department.
If you are still Interested would you be kind enough to give me a call.

Norton P.A. Lady

So basically they have upped the Salary from 25k which was on offer last time
to 28k, but I mentioned that I am now on 33k she has said she'd try to get
30k going up to 33k in 6 months once we are happy everything is working. It's
only 20 days holiday as opposed to the 25 days I have with Kids but the working
hours are flex-able. Barstewards, i was all settled into what i was going to
be doing for the next xx years and now this comes along. I am seriously conflicted.

33k (which will probabaly go up)
25 Days paid Holiday
Fairly Flexiable working ours
Seems fairly Stable.

All the Code is a steaming pile of pooh with no documentation!

Norton Motorcycles
Clean Slate for coding, complete new start.
It's Norton (working around motorbikes)

Like be a paydrop (3k)
only 20 days Holiday
Flexiable Working hours
Longer Commute that Kids

I have the last few weeks been a little unhappy with the code I am inheriting
from the company that built it, and i'd feel bad letting them down by leaving
to go to Norton. Argh, but Norton has more scope for advancement as i said before
I'd be ground level for running the IT Department but its a risk.

I guess the question is if i don't try it would I regret it?


Date: 2010-09-08 12:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ulfilias.livejournal.com
Where is the Norton Job ??? Could you stay in leeds for that or do you now want to be in the Shefield area.

Date: 2010-09-08 12:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] godgirl.livejournal.com
stay with kids. life isn't all about work and you get more money, more holiday and less commute there.

Date: 2010-09-08 01:18 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fuzzygoth.livejournal.com
it has crossed my mind

Date: 2010-09-08 04:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alixandrea.livejournal.com
^This. More holiday is priceless, I can't believe the stingy buggers at Norton are trying to give you so little!

Date: 2010-09-08 09:30 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fuzzygoth.livejournal.com
20 days is fairly standard in the corprate sector tbh

Date: 2010-09-08 09:42 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] turbolord.livejournal.com
No 25 days is standard. I have 27

Date: 2010-09-09 09:05 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thepaintedone.livejournal.com
No it's not. Many places only give 20 or so days (excluding Bank holidays)

Our place gives 20 for staff grade, and 25 for management grade, but also give the three days between Xmas and New Year for 'free'. So effectively 23 days and 28 days, IME this is very generous. I've seen plenty of places that give a bare 20 days to everyone, then force you to take three of those when the office closes at Xmas.

Date: 2010-09-09 09:08 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ebb.livejournal.com
Many places only give 20 or so days (excluding Bank holidays)

Bank Holidays sure add up.

Date: 2010-09-09 09:07 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alixandrea.livejournal.com
Ugh! I think I'll stick to the public sector ta. ;-)

Date: 2010-09-08 01:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fuzzygoth.livejournal.com
Donnington Park, East Midlands

Date: 2010-09-09 07:43 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pookledo.livejournal.com
*lol* You already know people in the area, and close to download *lol*

Date: 2010-09-08 12:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thepaintedone.livejournal.com
How much is this really an IT Manager gig?

£33k for an IT Manager is an insult (never mind £25k), I was earning more than that as an IT Manager/Dev 13 years ago. Ok, I'm in London, but right now I'm paying some first line support guys more than that.

That asside, my take would be that if Norton want you, they need to not just match but exceed the money you are on now. That's how the game is played. If they don't, then they don't value you enough. Your value is what someone is willing to pay for you, not what they have available. You also want to secure an increase now as there is a reasonable chance that pay rises will be few and far between down the road if you make them jump now.

Date: 2010-09-08 01:08 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ladycat.livejournal.com
33k for an IT Manager in a medium sized charity is about right in London. Most people do it because they have a passion for the cause. Charities can be awful when it comes to HR, but they tend to be a lot more flexible and understanding about life, hours, holiday and team spirit.

I'm biased btw...

Date: 2010-09-08 01:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fuzzygoth.livejournal.com
I am just a developer where I am currently, but the norton job gives me the oppertunity to move beyond that role eventually.

Yeah, it feel weird being surrounded by so many nice, friendly
and hopefull people. I'm used to cynisim. Regardless working for
Norton is much more appealing thought not neccisarily better

Date: 2010-09-08 02:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thepaintedone.livejournal.com
That's a charity though. I was IT Manager three times, then Group IT Manager and now Head of IT, so most of my career has been in that role. All that time I've been earning more than £33k. I have two management reports now, neither as senior as an IT Manager, and both are on a good bit more than that. Norton is a well known private firm, so the going rate is a good bit more than they are offering.

Date: 2010-09-08 01:17 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fuzzygoth.livejournal.com
Well it is a dev postion, but as the only IT Person I'd be the
first and last stop for everything IT related no doubt. The fact is is in education a friend who is effectively a manager is on less than that. I don't really want to go down the payscale from 33k now i've got here, if they'd got me before i started here i'd happily have taken 30k.

The thing is as well is the people and the work place is great but the code is horrible, and your talking at least 2 years to re-write it all and in the mean time i have this monster to fix
and maintain, where as at Norton i'd have free reign.

The money and the worry over how the handled it the last time round is my main worry. Realistically though if they went out
I'd imagine they could fill the role very easily tbh at 28k esspecially in the current climate.

Date: 2010-09-08 02:55 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thepaintedone.livejournal.com
The job sounds very similar to what I was doing back at M&S Shipping, or later Globalvisas. If it isn't officially an IT Manager now, it certainly is effectively the same job and if you go for it properly you could easily convert it to IT Manager in short order. I started at M&S Shipping as a 'systems developer', but was the only IT bod in the company and a year later got my job title changed to IT Manager. Haven't looked back since.

Don't compromise your market value. If someone is happy to pay you 33k for a straight dev job, you really don't want to be taking a pay cut for increased responsibillity. Bear in mind that as Cat points out, the market rate for charities is lower than private companies, so if a charity is willing to pay you £33k, it's ludicrous for a private company to offer less money for more responsibillity.

They might be able to fill the role for £28k, but they run a high risk of getting a muppet. If they are lucky enough to avoid that fate, anyone switched on will rapidly want more cash or will just move on to someone else who will pay a decent rate. Anyone who doesn't should be working for a charity where such altruism will be properly utilised.

Date: 2010-09-10 10:59 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tomb-bat.livejournal.com
Really? Any support jobs going ATM? ;o)


Date: 2010-09-08 01:12 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mister-jack.livejournal.com
For me, I'd stick with the kids job: more money, better holidays, a shorter commute. Dirty code is frustrating, and can be soul destroying after a while, but if you've got a reasonable amount of control over it you'll be able to make it your own after a while and get to know its quirks and flaws.

I suspect that working with Norton will turn out to be less of a benefit than you think. And, personally, I'd put doing socially valuable work about working for a company that makes a product I like.

And, yes, you will probably regret it - "we regret more that which we do not do than that which we do do" - but there will be regrets whichever way you turn. Life choices are always going to be like that.

Good luck!

Date: 2010-09-08 01:24 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fuzzygoth.livejournal.com
i want to be able to do a job i enjoy and this while socially responsible hasn't been looking like it.

Date: 2010-09-08 01:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] glensc.livejournal.com
There's a lot of reasons one way or the other, the only one I've come up with so far that others haven't is that the Norton job offers you the ability to stick, running a project from nothing to completion, on the CV.

Date: 2010-09-08 01:41 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mandalorean.livejournal.com
Well, you know my position on the subject after the little chat we've just had......

Just remember to sort me out some track time ;o)

Date: 2010-09-08 01:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] glassrat.livejournal.com
Do you get staff discount at Norton?

Date: 2010-09-08 02:27 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] call-me-harmony.livejournal.com
Reading all the comments and your responses to them so far I get the feeling that deep down you would prefer to do the Norton job. Maybe it's time to just do what you prefer :)

Date: 2010-09-08 04:13 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] prosperine.livejournal.com
Sit and think forward, one year, three years and five years. If all went as you'd want it to in each role which wouls make you happier ? Which is closer to where you weant to be ?. What do they look like in a year if they don't go how you want them to?

Happiness is individual, money is part of it but only part. So is work loads and stress (give me stress or I don't have a fulfilling job). So is power and autonomy. What will make you happy. Xx

Date: 2010-09-08 04:51 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cutietrol.livejournal.com
I'd stick with Kids. The code being rubbish is an advantage as others have said to make it your own. And Norton, yay, bikes, but really, how much of that will you actually see and how much could you just be in any cubicle working for any org?

That said I'm doing 1st/2nd line for a Charity for 21k, so I'd be happy with either frankly. Depressingly, if I factor in cost of living I'm probably getting paid less than I did 10 years ago and still doing the same job.

It's all gone a bit wrong...

Date: 2010-09-08 05:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] blondelass.livejournal.com
You've only listed one disadvantage for the kids job and only one advantage for the Norton job (motorbikes aside). Seems a pretty straight forward decision to me.

Is there any way you could suggest to the people at the kids job about developing a new code?

Date: 2010-09-08 06:01 pm (UTC)
miss_squiddy: (Default)
From: [personal profile] miss_squiddy
So why are they calling you at stupid o'clock to offer you a job they turned you down for originally?

I smell a rat here - first of all, out of hours working. Second of all, whoever took that job has scarpered pretty quickly. Perhps being paid as a developer but actually running the department isn't as much of a bonus as you think???

Also, a paydrop + longer commute will equal less money overall - unless the staff discount is really good! :)

Date: 2010-09-09 09:11 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thepaintedone.livejournal.com
The most likely rat is that for the low amount of money they are offering for the role, they can't get someone decent. From the timing, they possibly offered someone the role, but they walked away from it to a better paid position, or else started and quickly turned out to be a muppet.

You get what you pay for in employment and if they are only willing to pay peanuts....

Norton need to do a reality check, and since Mr Fuzzy is most definitely not a monkey, he should not work for peanuts. If you want to do charity work, do it for a charity.

Date: 2010-09-08 07:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hsw.livejournal.com
I'd stay with the Kids job. You will really regret those lost holidays, and a pay drop is hideous.

I can see you really fancy the Norton job, though, so I'd contact them and say that you would only consider it as IT manager, with an actual payrise and the same holidays as you have. If they want you, they should pay properly.


Date: 2010-09-08 08:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] brain-hurts.livejournal.com
first off, why is fairly flexible hours an advantage in one job, while flexible working hours disadvantage in the other.

More to your point: I think the real question is, do you want to work for Norton?

Nothing you've listed in your evaluation of the choice is more important than that. At least not the way I see it.

Date: 2010-09-09 07:44 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pookledo.livejournal.com
You know what my job situation has been like of late. I may be in a lesser paid job with less holidays now, but I'm much happier working in a field I'm interested in, closer to home, and with people I like.

It's not all about the money. Chose what is right for you.

Date: 2010-09-09 10:12 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] http://users.livejournal.com/melancholyrose_/
If the job you are doing now wasn't so annoying would you even think about moving ? Is there no way you can sort all this code out to your advantage ? (please bear in mind I know bugger all about using computers never mind this code malarkey you speak of)
Also is it mainly because motorbikes are involved that you really want to work for Norton, if it was just another company selling, lets say shoes, would you still be interested for the same money/holidays thay are offering ?
I think miss_squiddy might have a point, all might not be as it seems.


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